[General] To realists out there

Wolfgang Baer wolf at nascentinc.com
Mon Jan 22 14:19:41 PST 2018


Andre:

Please take a step back and look at your example. Is it not based on the 
a-priori assumption that there is an objective reality and signals from 
that assumed objective reality flow through our neural structure? What 
if we eliminate this assumption? What if we realize that our mental 
processing starts with the interaction at the retina. We do not know 
what caused it a-priori but what we are doing and have always done is 
attempt to find explanations for the imges produced by that interaction. 
We explain the shadows in Plato's cave.

  I thought this simple and clear example is demonstrable proof that we 
do not see objects. Nothing profound or complex. The object does not 
move when the screen on which an image is projected is warped. Because 
they do move when we warp our retina by pushing on it we do not see 
objects but processed images. It has been a puzzle for me that this 
simple and demonstrable proof is

This does not mean its all in the mind, it means we all see our own 
interpretation and once understood it leaves the door open for 
alternative and hopefully improved concepts of reality as quantum theory 
has shown us.

wolf

Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail wolf at NascentInc.com

On 1/22/2018 5:26 AM, André Michaud wrote:
>
> Hi Chip,
>
> I absolutely agree with you.
>
> Each of our "awarenesses" is separated from this really existing 
> physical reality by the double interface provided by each our neocortex.
>
> Our nerve endings feed the "signals" they receive from "outside" to 
> the entry layer of the neocortex (a 6-layer neural network), which is 
> the outer interface. The intercalary layers automatically correlate in 
> real time the tens of millions of signals into coherences that are 
> automatically provided at the output layer (the second interface) of 
> which our awareness is constantly observing.
>
> These research were carried out by neurophysiologists Ivan Pavlov 
> (available only in Russian and German), Donald Hebb (available only in 
> English), and Paul Chauchard (available only in French) mainly.
>
> If you are interested, a general summary of their research is 
> available here:
>
> https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/on-the-relation-between-the-comprehension-ability-and-the-neocortexverbal-areas-2155-6180-1000331.pdf
>
> Best Regards
>
> André
>
> ---
> André Michaud
> GSJournal admin
> http://www.gsjournal.net/
> http://www.srpinc.org/
>
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 05:37:43 -0600, "Chip Akins" wrote:
>
> Hi Wolf
>
> Yes. I agree that we need to make that next step of describing what is 
> going on which creates what we can observe.
>
> But I also firmly believe that there is an independent objective 
> reality which is described by the energy and its reaction to space. 
> And that we are also made of the same kinds of thing which we observe 
> (Energy reacting with space creating particles, etc.).
>
> The independent objective reality does not depend on us for it to 
> exist, but we can interact with it and make small changes to it in the 
> scheme of things. The building, tree, mountain, planet, or galaxy, are 
> still there, whether we observe them or not.
>
> We can change the shape of the lens in our eye and distort an image 
> just as we can change the shape of an external lens and distort an 
> image. The laws which govern these reactions are not changed. Those 
> laws, those causes, which define our universe, are the reasons that 
> particles exist and behave as they do. It is not our observation which 
> defines those objective laws of the universe. But we can do a much 
> better job of understanding those laws. That is the next step.
>
> Chip
>
> *From:*General 
> [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] 
> *On Behalf Of *Wolfgang Baer
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 21, 2018 7:58 PM
> *To:* general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> *Subject:* Re: [General] To realists out there
>
> Chip:
>
> The point is we do not see objects out there, we process the 
> imagefalling on our retina using our encoded beliefs into a mental 
> mage display, we do not directly see objects but instead created the 
> perception with all its properties
>
> If we saw objects directly they would not move when we fiddle with the 
> image in the experiment I described
>
> And because we do not see object directly but only perceptions that we 
> believe is reality, once we realize reality is NOT objects then the 
> door is open to ask the question, "Is there a better assumption about 
> what explains our sensations?"
>
> And a step along this path was taken by Quantum Theory which 
> substitutes probability waves for the classic object reality.
>
> But probabilities are squirmy and unsatisfying to me and most of us in 
> the forum- instead as my paper for FQXI proposes I believe reality is 
> better described by events, and specifically closed action cycles in 
> time. This is not solipsism. It does not mean there is nothing 
> external. It means the next step in our world view is to replace 
> objects and probabilities with interacting events.
>
> And specifically for your paper it means space is no longer an 
> independent objective thing out there but rather a creation that 
> explains certain repetitive sensations and therefore Lorenz is right 
> there is a fundamental background, and Einstein is right every 
> coordinate frame defines it own space. But neither of them have made 
> the next step. That we are all measuring through our coordinate frames 
> and learned theories that continue to evolve.
>
> hope this helps it certainly helps me to try to find the words that 
> explain Plato's cave idea in modern terms.
>
> wolf
>
> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
> Research Director
> Nascent Systems Inc.
> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
>
> On 1/21/2018 1:57 PM, Chip Akins wrote:
>
>     Hi Wolf
>
>     But we do have physical explanation for the distortion of an image
>     by a non-uniform convex lens. The refractive properties of the
>     lens are well known and documented, so that we can accurately
>     predict the distortion a particular lens will cause.
>
>     While we are made of material molecules, atoms, and particles,
>     which have an electromagnetic set of characteristics, and that
>     means that our perceptions are based on our physical makeup, and
>     our abilities to sense certain electromagnetic interactions, the
>     fundamental reality that exists in the universe can continue to
>     exist without any one of us, or all of us.
>
>     The evidence indicates that it is not only illogical but extremely
>     arrogant to assume otherwise. Our consciousness does not create
>     material objects in the universe, but it does allow us to sense
>     and interpret what we sense in various, sometimes erroneous, ways.
>     There are many ways for us to test this hypothesis, and we
>     actually test it many times each day.
>
>     Just my two cents, and my 5 senses. Opinion and tangible physical
>     mechanisms respectively.
>
>     Chip
>
>     *From:*General
>     [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
>     *On Behalf Of *Wolfgang Baer
>     *Sent:* Sunday, January 21, 2018 2:53 PM
>     *To:* Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
>     <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>     <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>     *Subject:* [General] To realists out there
>
>     To all:
>
>     I just submitted an essay contest to FQXI that is a short version
>     of the physics of the observer I am working on.One of the
>     responses claims I am completely off the mark and was signed
>     "realist"
>
>     Some of you may have the same "realist" inclinations so think of
>     this simple experiment:
>
>     Consider any object lens image setup.
>
>     Bend the image screen and you will see the image is distorted, but
>     no such distortion changes the object.
>
>     Now do the same thing but use your eye as the lens image part of
>     the setup.
>
>     Close one eye. With the other focus on an object - say a coffee
>     cup on the desk 1 meter away. Now push the open eye from the side
>     with your finger. This bends the retina and also moves or distorts
>     the coffee cup.
>
>     There is no physical mechanism in our current science that
>     accounts for such a distortion of the coffee cup if the coffee cup
>     you see is an independent object.
>
>     Conclusion: Neither the coffee cup nor anything we see in our
>     daily environment is an independent objective reality. We are
>     living in an interpretation of sensor interactions that is
>     implemented by a physics inside the observer. Developing and
>     defining this physics and straightening out the errors that have
>     crept into our current physics due to the assumption that reality
>     is the way we see it is the the the challenge confronting science
>     today
>
>     If you want to look at the paper click on
>
>     https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3043
>
>     If you want to rate it it might help me win, never know.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Wolf
>
>     -- 
>
>     Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>
>     Research Director
>
>     Nascent Systems Inc.
>
>     tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>
>     E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
>
>
>
>
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