[General] HA: Gravity

Sun Apr 30 05:53:50 PDT 2017

Thanks Chip,

It's good to see an intuitive view of things so thoroughly supported by the math.

It occurs to me that one can see a useful (if limited) analogy of my proposal in the form of a dandelion seed-head, as in the attached picture.  The centre of that seed-head, where the seeds are attached, represents what we perceive as a 'massive object'; the feather-light extensions from the seed itself represent the extended electromagnetic being of that massive object - not perceived by our (relatively coarse) senses, but having an effect on all other 'massive objects' passing through that 'field' of extensions from that one object.

If our sight was poor, so that we could not see those seed-extensions but could see the core to which the seeds are attached, and we brought together two or more seed-heads (pre-prepared with glue on their central cores so the seeds didn't detach!), we would certainly perceive each of those two cores as being influenced by the other - and we might conclude that each of those cores had an extended field of some sort - or even that each was 'bending space' in its vicinity so as to alter the trajectory of other such cores.  More than that, the degree to which each seed-head influenced the other would vary with their relative proximity, in a manner not dissimilar to the inverse square law [as I propose re massive objects in my response below to Albrecht].

This analogy is of course very limited, primarily by the facts that:
(a) the feather-like extensions on seeds are finite in their extent - unlike electromagnetic field effects;
(b) it's not physically possible for those extensions to pass through each other - as it is with time-varying electromagnetic fields.

Critics might argue that such time-varying electromagnetic fields can pass through each other without affecting one another in any way - coherent superposition.  Note that, whilst this is true of linear solutions to Maxwell's Equations, the effects being proposed here are NOT linear since they emanate from closed-loop electromagnetic constructs - electromagnetically-formed 'particles'.  It's precisely that non-linearity that permits (gives rise to) interactions between photons and material particles.  This is also the basis of 'virtual photons' that mediate electromagnetic interactions between charged particles.

Thanks again, Chip.
I hope others find this of interest.

Grahame
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chip Akins 
  To: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' 
  Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 11:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity

  Hi Albrecht, Wolf, Grahame

  So my study of the electron and electric charge, from the standpoint of energy being a displacement of space, has led to some interesting observations.

  At this point I will just present some of the math.  Perhaps when there is a bit more time I can fill in with a description of each step in formulation of the relationships.

  The term Ҡ=4.585769462803310E-06 and yields a radius for the electron of:

  The term: §=1.44492000606359E-28

  So that, for the energy level of the electron:

  The mass of the electron is:

  The energy of the electron is of course:

  The radius of the electron is:

  The gravitational constant related to energy is:

  Let us use the distance and compute the force of gravity between two electrons.

  So the force of gravity under these conditions is:

  Then when we compare that result to the conventional gravitational equation for the electron’s mass:

  This approach unifies the forces, including gravity. And gravity is somewhat as Grahame has described, and has the “almost instantaneous” quality that Wolf and Grahame have mentioned.

  Chip

  From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Dr Grahame Blackwell
  Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:15 PM
  To: phys at a-giese.de; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; wolf at nascentinc.com; af.kracklauer at web.de
  Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity

  Hi Albrecht,

  I'm not sure how you figure that your two cases in any way discount my proposal.  If the 'gravitational effects' of a massive body are in fact just the extended electromagnetic manifestation of that body (i.e. of all its constituent particles) then that extended manifestation will move synchronously with the part of that body that we register with our senses.  It follows that, whilst that extended manifestation is at all times present throughout the cosmos, the 'intensity distribution' of that manifestation at any point (to use a limited analogy) will also move in perfect time with the perceived part of that body (in simple terms, subject to the inverse square law in respect of perceived position of that object) - in other words the 'gravitational field' will vary in (space)time exactly as one would expect of a gravitational field with zero latency.

  I believe that's fully consistent with observations regarding the two examples you cite - if they in turn are consistent with the possibility of 'propagation of gravitational effects being instantaneous'.  To me the whole picture ties together seamlessly.  The composite of all of those extended manifestations, varying in position in spacetime as their perceived 'cores' move, constitute the texture of spacetime that "tells matter how to move" (to quote Wheeler) - the 'curvature' of spacetime, as it's generally termed.

  I hope that helps.

  Best regards,

  Grahame

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Albrecht Giese 

    To: general at lists..natureoflightandparticles.org ; wolf at nascentinc.com ; af.kracklauer at web.de ; phys at a-giese.de 

    Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:38 PM

    Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity

    Grahame,

    you say:  " ...  the 'effects of gravity' are in fact the consequences of those distributed entities ALREADY being present to some degree at every point in the cosmos ...   "

    But look at the following cases: 1.) There may be two twin stars which orbit each other. Their distance is rapidly changing during an orbit. So the gravitational influences to their environment will change. And for this change I see the question justified which the propagation speed of this influence is. I think that your statement above does not cover this case, true?  2.)  An even less regular case: I know a colleague (professor) who has built and performs an experiment to determine again the gravitational constant. In doing this he has two massive objects which he moves towards each other or apart from each other and measures the force between them. This process depends on his momentary decisions, so it is completely irregular compared to other physical processes. So, also in this case, nothing is constant or even predetermined.

    Wolf,

    there was an interesting development in our understanding of the physics of gravity. About a hundred years ago it was the general opinion that gravity is the simplest and most fundamental force in physics. This may also have been the reason that gravity is a fundamental parameter in the definition of the Planck units. At present, however, the representatives of the German Einstein Institute say that gravity is the least understood and perhaps most complicated force. 

    The idea to connect gravity in some way to the electric force comes up again and again. The reason is most probably that both follow the dependence of range of 1/r2. (But this dependence can be explained geometrically if we assume that forces are generally mediated by exchange particles.) The idea of Jefimenko that there is a cogravitation as a kind of different charge sign to make it compatible with electricity is a new and severe assumption. I find it better not to permanently introduce new - an unobserved - phenomena than to try to live with the existing ones (= Occam's razor). 

    Einstein has described gravity as a geometrical phenomenon, changing the understanding of space and time. On the other hand Theodor Kaluza has irritated Einstein with his hint that any force in physics can be explained by a specific geometry of space and time. (Einstein has accepted that but was not happy with it.) So, why not go back to physics and to forces in gravity rather than using space-time.

    Regarding the instantaneous propagation of gravity: To my knowledge this was carefully investigated in past decades with the result that also gravity is limited to c. I do not go back to the details. Should there be new arguments which are not covered by the past discussions then this would  be a good reason to investigate this case again. But are there new arguments? 

    If we want progress in the realm of gravitation, I expect an answer to at least one question: what is the cause of the weak equivalence principle, i.e. the fact that all objects are having the same gravitational acceleration independent of their inertial mass. Newton's theory of gravity does not answer this, Einstein's does not answer it as well. Gravity has to answer it!

    Albrecht

    Am 29.04.2017 um 00:28 schrieb Dr Grahame Blackwell:

      Wolf et al,

      You will note that my proposal re gravity in my recently-circulated paper, as the 'extended being' of spatially distributed entities that we (with our limited senses) perceive as localised 'particles', implicitly proposes that the 'propagation speed of gravity' is in fact infinite - since there is in actuality NO propagation involved, the 'effects of gravity' are in fact the consequences of those distributed entities ALREADY being present to some degree at every point in the cosmos.  I.e. 'everything is everywhere', to put it in simple terms; as a 'physical massive object' moves (again, a simplistic term), the WHOLE of its extended being moves with it and is immediately in a position to manifest 'gravitational' effects of that object consistent with its changed position, no matter how far spatially removed (more simplistic concepts!) from what we perceive as the 'massive object' itself.

      This points to a far deeper truth - that 'locality' and 'time' are both over-simplifications of deeper concepts, foisted on us by an evolutionary process that's more interested that we (a) breed, (b) find lunch and (c) don't become lunch - than it is in us fathoming the underlying principles of cosmic structure.

      Best,

      Grahame

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