[General] What holds mass and charge together

Wed Sep 13 15:05:57 PDT 2017

Wolf, 

I make absolutely no reference to POINT particles.  My own perception of a particle is a million miles from that! (literally!).  However we must surely agree that the physical realm is formed from SOMETHING - otherwise we are totally lost! - and that 'something' must have properties that govern both its behaviour and its influence.  I have simply observed that both mass and charge are properties of the 'something' we refer to as 'a charged particle' - if you don't agree with that then I have no idea at all what you're talking about!  If charge and mass are just two properties floating about in the cosmos not associated with anything then we may as well all pack up and go home, since there's nothing tangible even to refer to!

[Note that in your example of the antenna it seems that you're confusing two issues: the charge is not carried by the antenna but by charged particles moving within that antenna - that's why the charge moves.]

Wolf, it seems to me sometimes that you are trying to claim the moral (intellectual?) high ground by suggesting that others are too fixed in their thinking.  This is not actually a good position to be in, as it also seems to me that you are rather fixed in your thinking that we can dispense with any even-slightly postulates and attribute all effects to 'new discoveries in the future'.  At some point even those discoveries will be in the past - will you then want to dispense with them also?  If we don't attribute any significance whatever to observed phenomena then we have nothing to work with - all we have is speculation (and note that the root of even that word is based on Plato's cave concept, effectively - so even that depends on some degree of observation).

As you say, we can certainly ask why? - but that question is never going to be answered without some reference to observed phenomena and inferences based on those observations.

Best regards,
Grahame
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Wolfgang Baer 
  To: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [General] What holds mass and charge together

  Yes of course if you agree that the world is made of particles and that all identified "properties" must be attached to their center points then you would dismiss any other possibility

  But we are now talking not about what is "known truth" but whether some of those known truths are in fact the best way to interpret our observable experiences. There are quite obviously many situations where the charge centers move relative to the mass when looking at large aggregation just consider a dipole antenna obviously large charges move up and down but the mass center stays pretty well stable.

  Bohr and most nuclear physics id based upon the assumption that all properties are attached to point particles is this correct?

  Scattering experiments have shown the shape of elemetary particles are not all perfect spheres. 

  We ave two major force categories dominating the macroscopic world electricity-magnetism and gravity-inertia each domain has a set of well developed descriptive equations , but the simple connection between the two is a straight forward guess.

                  The Lorenz force Fl is simply equated to the acceleration     Fl = ma but we never measure the position of a mass we always measure the position of a charge configuration . We cannot see or feel a mass all we see and feel is the electric coulomb repulsion between the surface electrons of our hand and the surface electrons of the objects we hold. 

  There the mystery starts, you can paper over it with a fiat, or you can ask why?

  You can apply the rules we have discovered to work in the past or you can look for new discoveries in the future 

  What group  do you want to belong to?

  best wishes 

  The question puzzling me on the Bohr atom case is not that Somerfeld's adjustments can occur, but if there are adjustments why do they not apply to shift the lines all together from the single theoretical prediction, why is there a hyperfine structure in the spectral lines?

  Wolf

Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail wolf at NascentInc.comOn 9/13/2017 6:54 AM, Andrew Meulenberg wrote:

    I agree with Grahame. Separating charge and mass is like separating electricity and magnetism.

    Andrew

    On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell <grahame at starweave.com> wrote:

      Wolf (et al.),

      (diagrams dropped, with chain of other previous emails.)

      In my view there is absolutely no issue as to what holds mass and charge together - neither is an object, to be 'held' to anything else, they are both effects.  There seems little doubt that both of those effects are artefacts of the fundamental content of a massive charged particle - namely its formative energy.

      It's very simply shown that if a particle is moving then its energy content must increase in exactly the way described (without explanation) in SR - this is fully apparent from the Relativistic Energy-Momentum Relation; this is inertial mass, the requirement for that additional energy to maintain the structural integrity of the particle.  Likewise it's totally apparent from interference effects demonstrated in respect of massive particles that charge also must be an artefact of that formative energy.  So the very concept that they could possibly be separated, and so need holding together, makes absolutely no sense to me.  I Kant see the point of even discussing it! (Sorry, that pun may not translate very well!)

      [As a point of detail, that energy is also its gravitational mass, for other reasons arising directly from that energy.]

      Regards,
      Grahame
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Wolfgang Baer 
        To: Albrecht Giese ; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion 
        Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 8:35 AM
        Subject: [General] What holds mass and charge together

        Chandra and Albrecht:

        I fully agree with the Plato's shadow analogy and the realization that we have been building a physics that explains the shadows  not the reality is very clear. But that involves  giving up the notion of a fixed objective reality and moving toward a n acknowledgement of a Kantian unknowable about which we make models that express our best guess and judge them based on success.

        It involves returning to simple examples and testing the logic of our assumptions. Toward this end I have returned to the old simple experimants the utilize the concept of mass and charge as the most understandable properties of matter. One of the central assumptions in physics is that of a point particle which places all properties of the particle and specifically the source and sink of mass and charge centers at a co-located point.

        So I ask what holds charge and mass together? what kind of physics would we have if there were a force Fcm and Fmc between charge and mass and mass and charge.

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