[General] Foundational questions Tension field stable particles

Albrecht Giese phys at a-giese.de
Mon Feb 26 14:07:09 PST 2018


Chandra,

Which "something physically" exists in case of the Coriolis force?
Answer: It is an inertial mass.

And which "something physically" exists in case of magnetism?
Answer: It is an electrical charge.

Albrecht

Am 26.02.2018 um 22:02 schrieb Roychoudhuri, Chandra:
>
> Albrecht and the rest of our colleagues::
>
> Albrecht: Thanks for your patience in guiding me to delve into 
> magnetism that I never paid attention to before.
>
> Now I see that it has deep implications in understanding (further 
> defining properties of) the Complex Tension Field (CTF).
>
> My current position is that nothing can be perceived by another “test 
> object”, whether stationary or moving, unless something physically 
> exists in the first place. */What is in the space around a charge that 
> appears as a magnetic field when the test magnetic field is in 
> “relative motion”?/* Is it the temporal gradient of a static 
> charge-field? But, then we are back again to Maxwell! Yet, I agree 
> that Maxwell has not given us the complete final physics.
>
> I hope this question alerts the enquiring minds of everybody in our 
> group. I believe, it is of some fundamental importance. I will keep 
> pondering.
>
> Right now I am looking for money to test the existence of a stationary 
> CTF guiding linear EM waves via “epsilon-not” and “mu-not”.
>
> Chandra.
>
> *From:*General 
> [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]*On 
> Behalf Of *Albrecht Giese
> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 3:30 PM
> *To:* general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> *Subject:* Re: [General] Foundational questions Tension field stable 
> particles
>
> /Chandra:/
>
> Let's begin with your question at the end.
>
> It is a good and a challenging question in so far as we treat 
> magnetism in our everyday live in a way which does not reflect the 
> true physics behind it. Normally if we have to do it with magnetism, 
> then it is a magnetic dipole. And when we measure a magnetic field we 
> use another magnetic dipole, i.e. we measure the force or the angular 
> momentum onto this test dipole.
>
> The clean way to measure a magnetic field is to use an electric test 
> charge. If there is a force acting on the test charge we have to check 
> whether this force can be explained by the presence of another charge 
> using the Coulomb law. Then we have to build the difference between 
> the force given by the Coulomb law and the real force observed. This 
> difference is "magnetism".
>
> If we say that the earth has a magnetic field, we mean that it is a 
> magnetic dipole. And we measure the field strength by the use of 
> another magnetic dipole, we may call the latter one a "test-dipole".
>
> Now your question regarding the Earth. To measure the magnetic field 
> of the Earth physically, one should use an electrical test charge and 
> measure the force on it. Now, if the earth is not electrically 
> charged, the result will be 0. That means no magnetic field is 
> detected. Should now the observer move together with his charge in 
> relation to the Earch, there will be a force. That means during his 
> motion he will see a magnetic field. - This answers your question how 
> it can be achieved that an observer does not see a magnetic field. 
> Normally he will not see it anyway. Our daily experience is of course 
> different. Because if someone starts to measure the magnetism of the 
> earth he will use a dipole as said above; with the conclusion that 
> there is a magnetic field. And it will be extremely difficult (I think 
> impossible) to move a dipole so that it will not see a magnetic field. 
> The reason is simple. In a magnetic dipole, which is generally a coil 
> with a current in it, there are always charges at some position in the 
> coil which are in a motion state to the moving charges in the Earth, 
> so one will register magnetism.
>
> You mention a "magnetic body". I do not feel that this is a good way 
> to name it. The magnetic body at the end is an electric charge. And 
> that one is only "magnetic" if it is viewed from a certain perspective.
>
> Then you say: A propagating EM wave has oscillating E and B vectors. A 
> dipole oscillation induces oscillating E, which generates its own 
> restoring force B, ...  Please have in mind that this is the 
> understanding of Maxwell's theory. But Maxwell is good for the 
> practical use of electromagnetism, but it does not reflect the cause 
> of magnetism.
>
> If you have general doubts about my description of magnetism I should 
> say that all this is not my idea but main stream physics, can be found 
> in textbooks e.g. about SR. However ignored by most practising main 
> stream physicists.
>
> Albrecht
>
> Am 26.02.2018 um 00:25 schrieb Roychoudhuri, Chandra:
>
>     */Wolf:/*
>
>     I think, I am more along the line of your thinking.
>
>     *//*
>
>     */Albrecht: /*
>
>     Now I am realizing that magnetism is a very important field (pun
>     intended Jthat I do not fully understand. Intuitively I disagree
>     with the explanation that “magnetic field” EMERGES only due to
>     RELATIVE VELOCITY between a charge and an */observer/*. Relative
>     velocity may change the quantification by our instrument of what
>     already exist in nature. I submit, I do not have good counter theory.
>
>     On a different angle, we human are mere interpreters of data, send
>     to our neural network, whether by our internal body-sensors or by
>     reading “dials” of external sensors (instruments). */Interactants,
>     inside our instruments that generate the data, are the real
>     “observers”/*, if we must use this word..*/Humans are not the
>     observers, just interpreters. /*Therefore, the job of humans
>     should be to develop theories that directly tries to model the
>     */interaction processes/* going on between the interactants inside
>     the instruments, or in nature. Our interpretations can vary widely
>     from person to person; but the physical transformations
>     experienced by the interactants inside our instruments follow
>     ontological (existing) rules of operation in nature. That is why
>     we can get re-producible data for the same interaction process.
>     This is the bedrock of causal physics. We can modify the strengths
>     of interactions by introducing changes in the interaction
>     parameter in diverse ways, including relative velocity.
>
>          Unfortunately, my expertise on magnetism is quite limited.
>     However, as of now, I am reluctant to accept that magnetism
>     */appears/* only as SR implicates. In my stationary CTF model,
>     everything observable and their properties do emerge due to
>     dynamic movements. But they are real, not “relative”. Can we
>     really claim that magnetism is like Doppler Effect? The measured
>     frequency shift is solely dependent on the relative velocity.
>     However, the frequency of the emitted radiation is the real
>     physical parameter of a physical entity, an EM wave packet. That
>     is why Doppler shift varies with the relative velocity.*/Does the
>     strength of magnetic field changes with the relative velocity of
>     the detector with respect to the magnetic body?/*
>
>     Another angle. A propagating EM wave has oscillating E and B
>     vectors. A dipole oscillation induces oscillating E, which
>     generates its own restoring force B, thereby, generating the
>     perpetually oscillating and propagating wave packet in the
>     */stationary/* CTF. In the biological world, cellular magnetism
>     plays wide ranges of important functions. I will have read up on
>     these phenomena.
>
>     Let me pose a question.
>
>     Earth and many other planets have magnetic fields due to motions
>     in their cores.
>
>     Can an external magnetic sensor be forced to read “null magnetic
>     field” by giving it the right velocity in the right direction?
>
>     Chandra.
>
>     *From:*General
>     [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]*On
>     Behalf Of *Albrecht Giese
>     *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2018 3:02 PM
>     *To:* general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
>     <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [General] Foundational questions Tension field
>     stable particles
>
>     Hi Wolf, and hi Chandra,
>
>     comments and answers down in the text:
>
>     Am 23.02.2018 um 05:28 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>
>         Albrecht:
>
>         "Whenever an observer is in a magnetic field, he can find a
>         motion state so that the magnetic field disappears."
>
>         I've heard this many times but now that you said it, and I'm
>         no longer a student so I have time to wonder ,
>
>         there is a coil of wire in front of me I feel a magnetic field
>         exactly how would I move to make it disappear? And what other
>         forces would I experience to maintain that motion?
>
>     This may be explainable stepwise. In the first step use a coil of
>     wire with only one moving charge in it. Now have a test charge at
>     the side outside the coil. This test charge will see the
>     electrostatic force according to the Coulomb law, but nothing
>     more. If this test charge is not at rest but moving then in the
>     frame of the test charge nothing changes, Coulomb still applies.
>     But if an observer at rest measures the electrostatic force
>     between both in _his _frame, he will see a different force acting
>     on the test charge. This can be also calculated using the Lorentz
>     transformation with respect to force. This difference is called
>     "magnetism". If now the observer moves with the test charge he
>     will only see the electrostatic force like the test charge itself
>     does, so no magnetism.
>     If there in not only one charge in the coil but a lot of them,
>     there will be a superposition of all applying forces. Now an
>     observer who wants to escape the magnetic field will have to find
>     a new frame which takes into account this superposition.
>
>
>         The electron velocity in a wire is quite low and I can
>         increase the current and keep the velocity the same thus
>         increase the magnetic field so if I rotate around the center
>         axis of the loop I can make the charges stand still and there
>         should be no magnetic field - maybe but now we have to ask how
>         do I measure the magnetic field to reach this conclusion?
>
>     A magnetic field is generally measured in the way that the force
>     on a charge is measured and the result is compared to the expected
>     Coulomb force. If there is an excess of force, it is magnetism.
>
>
>         well if I place another wire loop the electrons in both wires
>         move at the same velocity and by the argument above they would
>         not "see" the electrons in the other ring moving but they
>         would certainly feel a magnetic field and the two loops would
>         attract each other
>
>     The electrons in one loop will of course "see" the electrons in
>     the other one. If both wires are overcharged with electrons then
>     there will be the repelling Coulomb force. But in the normal case
>     in practise the wires are electrically neutral. And a current
>     means that negative charges (here electrons) are moving into one
>     direction and positive charges (the corresponding positive "holes"
>     of charge) are moving into the other direction. Now, what will a
>     test electron notice which moves outside along the wire? It will
>     see the charges moving into the opposite direction
>     relativistically contracted, the co-moving ones not (or precisely:
>     extended). And so the test electron will see a different density
>     of charges (for the positive and negative ones) and so a resulting
>     field (which an electron at rest will not see). The resulting
>     force which is only noticeable by a moving test charge is called
>     magnetism.
>
>     There is a video of Versitasium which shows this quite illustrative:
>
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TKSfAkWWN0
>
>
>         What am I missing?
>
>     Was this understandable?
>     Albrecht
>
>
>         Wolf
>
>         Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>
>         Research Director
>
>         Nascent Systems Inc.
>
>         tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>
>         E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
>
>         On 2/22/2018 11:26 AM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>
>             Chandra,
>
>             I like very much what you have written here. Particularly
>             what you say about "time" which physically means
>             oscillations. That is what one should keep in mind when
>             thinking about relativity.
>
>             However in one point I have to object. That is your
>             judgement of the parameter µ. I think that it is a result
>             from the historical fact that magnetism was detected long
>             time earlier than electricity. So magnetism plays a great
>             role in our view of physics which does not reflect its
>             role there. We know since about 100 years that magnetism
>             is not a primary phenomenon but an apparent effect, a side
>             effect of the electric field which is caused by the
>             finiteness of c. If c would be infinite there would not be
>             any magnetism. This is given by the equation c^2 =
>             (1/ϵµ)which you have mentioned. This equation should be
>             better written as µ = (1/c^2 ϵ) to reflect this physical
>             fact, the dependency of the magnetism on c.
>
>             The symmetry between electricity and magnetism is
>             suggested by Maxwell's equation. These equations are
>             mathematically very elegant and well usable in practice.
>             But they do not reflect the physical reality. Easiest
>             visible is the fact that we have electrical monopoles but
>             no magnetic monopoles. Einstein has described this fact by
>             saying: Whenever an observer is in a magnetic field, he
>             can find a motion state so that the magnetic field
>             disappears. - This is as we know not possible for an
>             electric field.
>
>             I think that we have discussed this earlier. Do you remember?
>
>             Albrecht
>
>             Am 21.02.2018 um 00:00 schrieb Roychoudhuri, Chandra:
>
>                 /“We nee//d a geometry in which both space and time
>                 are curved back on themselves to provide a donut in
>                 which the forces Fem, Fgi, Fcm,Fmc are self contained
>                 eigen states at each action quanta. /
>
>                 /Does any of this suggest a tension field you might be
>                 thinking about??”/
>
>                 Yes, Wolf, we need to model mathematically the “twists
>                 and turns” of different intrinsic potential gradients
>                 embedded in CTF (Complex Tension Field) to create
>                 stationary self-looped oscillations
>                 (*/field-particles/*). Maxwell achieved that for the
>                 propagating linear excitations using his brilliant
>                 observations of using the double differentiation –
>                 giving us the EM wave equation. We need to find
>                 non-propagating (stationary – Newton’s first law)
>                 self-looped oscillations – the in-phase ones will be
>                 stable, others will “break apart” with different
>                 life-times depending upon how far they are from the
>                 in-phase closed-loop conditions. The successes of the
>                 mathematical oscillatory dynamic model could be judged
>                 by the number of predicted properties the theory can
>                 find for the */field-particles,/* which we have
>                 measured so far. The physical CTF must remain
>                 stationary holding 100% of the cosmic energy.
>
>                     However, I would not attempt to keep the primacy
>                 of Relativity by trying to keep the Space-Time 4-D
>                 concept intact. If we want to capture the ontological
>                 reality; we must imagine and visualize the potential
>                 */foundational/* physical process and represent that
>                 with a set of algebraic symbols and call them the
>                 primary parameters of “different grades”. During
>                 constructing mathematical theories, it is of prime
>                 importance to introduce consciously this concept of
>                 “primary”, vs. “secondary”, vs. “tertiary”, etc.,
>                 physical parameters related to any observable physical
>                 phenomenon. The physical parameter that dictates the
>                 core existence of an entity in nature should be
>                 considered as primary. However, it is not going to be
>                 easy because of the complexities in the different
>                 interaction processes – different parameters take key
>                 role in transferring the energy in different
>                 interactions. Besides, our ignorance is still
>                 significantly broad compared to the “validated”
>                 knowledge we have gathered about our universe. Here is
>                 a glaring example. νλ = c = (1/ϵµ). If I am doing
>                 atomic physics, ν is of primary importance because of
>                 the quantum resonance with ν and the QM energy
>                 exchange rule is “hν”.   “λ” changes from medium to
>                 medium. If I am doing Astrophysics, ϵ and µ for free
>                 space, are of primary significance; even though people
>                 tend to use “c”, while missing out the fundamental
>                 roles of ϵ and µ as some of the core building blocks
>                 of the universe. Funny thing is that the ϵ and µ of
>                 free space were recognized well before Maxwell
>                 synthesized Electromagnetism.
>
>                     With this background, I want underscore that the
>                 “running time, “t” is of critical importance in our
>                 formulation of the dynamic universe. And, yet “t’ is
>                 not a directly measurable physical parameter of any
>                 object in this universe. What we measure is really the
>                 frequency, or its inverse, the oscillation periods of
>                 different physical oscillators in this universe. So,
>                 frequency can be dilated or contracted by controlling
>                 the ambient physical parameter of the environment that
>                 surrounds and INFLUENCES the oscillator. The running
>                 time cannot be dilated or contracted; even though
>                 Minkowsky introduced this “dilation” concept. This is
>                 the reason why I have been pushing for the
>                 introduction in physics thinking the Interaction
>                 Process Mapping Epistemology (IPM-E).
>
>                 Chandra.
>
>                 *From:*General
>                 [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]*On
>                 Behalf Of *Wolfgang Baer
>                 *Sent:* Monday, February 19, 2018 10:56 PM
>                 *To:* general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
>                 <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>                 *Subject:* Re: [General] Foundational questions
>                 Tension field stable particles
>
>                 Candra:
>
>                  Let’s consider your tension filed is a medium
>                 underlying the experience of space composed of charge
>                 and mass density spread out in the cross-section of a
>                 time loop.. Coordinate frame cells of /small enough/
>                 sizes can be described by constant enough mass and
>                 charge densities in each cell. For small enough cells
>                 the mass and charge values concentrated at their
>                 centers may be used in stead of the densities. The
>                 resulting field of center values can take any pattern
>                 that satisfies the extended dAlambert principle.
>                 Besides the classic electro-magnetic Fem and
>                 gravito-inertial force Fgi I postulate forces tat hold
>                 charge and mass together Fcm, Fmc. This condition
>                 assures mass charge centers in each cell appear at
>                 locations of balanced forces. Each pattern which
>                 satisfies this condition represents a static state of
>                 the loop in which the patterns are fixed for the
>                 lifetime of the loop.
>
>                 **
>
>                 *The Charge-Mass Separation Vector and Equilibrium States*
>
>                 The physical size of the space is its volume. The 
>                 volume (Vol) of space is the sum of the infinitesimal
>                 volumes dVol of  each of the cells composing that
>                 space “Vol = ∫_all space dVol”. These infinitesimal
>                 volumes are calculated from the mass-charge density
>                 extensions in each cell when viewed externally as
>                 shown in figure 4.3-3a . The physical volume depends
>                 upon the mass charge separation pattern of the
>                 equilibrium state the system being modeled exists in.
>
>                             In CAT the extension of a cell can be
>                 calculated as follows. In each cell the distance
>                 between the center of charge and mass is a vector
>                 d*ζ.* The projection of this vector onto the degrees
>                 of freedom directions available for the charge and
>                 mass to move in the generalized coordinate space
>                 allows us to expansion this vector as,
>
>                 Eq. 4.3-1 *dζ =* dζ_t *∙u_t * + dζ_x *∙u_x *+ dζ_y
>                 *∙u_y *+ dζ_z *∙u_z +…* dζ_f *∙u_f +…,*
>
>                 **where the *u_f *’s are the unit vectors. A space
>                 limited to Cartesian 3-space is characterized by three
>                 x,y,z directions, but CAT models a generalized space
>                 that encompasses all sensor modalities not only the
>                 optical ones.
>
>                             The volume of a cell calculated from the
>                 diagonal expansion vector “*dζ”* by multiplying all
>                 non zero coefficients,
>
>                 Eq. 4.3-2                     dVol =  dζ_t *∙*dζ_x
>                 *∙*dζ_y *∙*dζ_z *∙…∙*dζ_f *∙… .*
>
>                             The shape of this volume is determined by
>                 the direction of the expansion vector which in turn is
>                 determined by the direction and strength of forces
>                 pulling the charge and mass apart. The direction of
>                 pull depends upon the number of dimensions available
>                 in the generalized coordinates of the media. The
>                 forces must be in equilibrium but exact equilibrium
>                 pattern depends upon which global loop equilibrium
>                 state “Ζ” the event being modeled is in.
>
>                             In the simplest equilibrium state the
>                 masses and charges are collocated. This implies the
>                 internal forward propagating in time forces F_cm ,F_mc
>                 , and backward propagating in time force F_mc *,F_cm *
>                 are zero, and if there are no internal force pulling
>                 the charges and masses together then sum of the
>                 remaining exterior gravito-electric forces pulling the
>                 charge and mass apart must separately be zero
>                 precisely at the collocation point. A trivial
>                 condition that satisfies these equations is when all
>                 forces are zero. In this case there is no action in
>                 the media and no action for expanding the coordinate
>                 frame defining a volume of space. We are back to a
>                 formless blob of zero volume, where all charges and
>                 masses are at the same point. This is the absolute
>                 ground state of material, one level of something above
>                 nothing.  The big bang before the energy of action
>                 flow is added.
>
>                 To exemplify the methods we consider an equilibrium
>                 state of a single isolated cell whose only degree of
>                 freedom is the time direction. This means the volume
>                 in all space directions are infinitesimally small and
>                 the volume can be considered a single line of
>                 extension “ΔVol = ΔT_w = ∫dζ_t “ along the time
>                 direction as shown in the god’s eye perspective of
>                 figure 4.3-6. In this situation we can consider
>                 charges and masses to be point particles. Forces as
>                 well as action can only propagate along the material
>                 length of the line time line represented in space as
>                 “Qw”. We now list the sequence of changes that can
>                 propagate through around the equilibrium positions
>                 indicated by numbers in parenthesis.
>
>                 (1)The upper charge is pushed from its equilibrium
>                 position (filled icon) forward along the time line
>
>                 (2)It exerts a force “Fem” on the left charge pushing
>                 it forward while feeling a reaction force “Fem*” that
>                 retards it back to its equilibrium position
>
>                 (3)While the left charge is moved from equilibrium it
>                 exerts an internal “Fcm” force on the bottom mass
>                 while feeling a reaction force “Fcm*” which  returns
>                 it to equilibrium.
>
>                 (4)While the bottom mass is moved from equilibrium it
>                 exerts a force “Fgi” on the right mass while feeling a
>                 reaction force “Fgi*” which returns it to equilibrium.
>
>                 (5)While the right mass is moved from equilibrium it
>                 exerts a force “Fmc” on the upper charge while feeling
>                 a reaction force “Fmc*” which returns it to
>                 equilibrium. We are now back to (1).
>
>                 If the system is isolated there is no dissipation into
>                 other degrees of freedom and the oscillation continues
>                 to move as a compression wave around the “Qw” time
>                 line circumference forever. The graph however is
>                 static and shows a fixed amount of action indicated by
>                 the shaded arrows around the time line. Motion in
>                 “block” models is produced by the velocity of the
>                 observer or model operator as he moves around the time
>                 line. From our god’s eye perspective an action density
>                 is permanently painted on the clock dial and thereby
>                 describes an total event. The last degree of freedom
>                 events are rather trivial
>
>                             We need a geometry in which both space and
>                 time are curved back on themselves to provide a donut
>                 in which the forces Fem, Fgi, Fcm,Fmc are self
>                 contained eigen states at each action quanta.
>
>                 Does any of this suggest a tension field you might be
>                 thinking about??
>
>                 Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>
>                 Research Director
>
>                 Nascent Systems Inc.
>
>                 tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>
>                 E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
>
>                 On 1/24/2018 7:20 PM, Roychoudhuri, Chandra wrote:
>
>                     1. Yes, I have submitted an essay. FQXi has not
>                     sent the approval link yet.
>
>                     2. Replacement of our SPIE conf. Without a
>                     supporting infrastructure to replace SPIE-like
>                     support, it is very difficult to manage. I will
>                     try NSF during the last week of May. Do you want
>                     to start negotiating with some out-of-box European
>                     groups?
>
>                     3. Re-starting afresh from the bottom up is the
>                     only way to start re-building a unified field
>                     theory. It is futile to force-fit whole bunch of
>                     different theories that were structured
>                     differently at different states of human cultural
>                     epoch.
>
>                     Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>                     On Jan 24, 2018, at 6:08 PM, Wolfgang Baer
>                     <wolf at nascentinc.com <mailto:wolf at nascentinc.com>>
>                     wrote:
>
>                         Chandra:
>
>                         Just rereading your 2015 paper "Urgency of
>                         evolution..."
>
>                         I love the sentiment " This is a good time to
>                         start iteratively re-evaluating and
>                         restructuring all the foundational postulates
>                         behind all the working theories"
>
>                         Did you write a paper for FQXi?
>
>                         I sent one in
>                         https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3043
>
>                         Is there any chance to get a replacement for
>                         the SPIE conference, one that would expand the
>                         questions
>
>                         beyond the nature of light?
>
>                         Wolf
>
>                           
>
>                         -- 
>
>                         Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>
>                         Research Director
>
>                         Nascent Systems Inc.
>
>                         tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>
>                         E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
>
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