[General] Velocity of gravitation

Wed Feb 13 13:04:40 PST 2019

Hi Al

We do not have to assume instantaneous interaction to simply explain what we observe, all we have to do is start with space which is a CTF as Chandra calls it.  The EM waves we are able to measure mimic, of course, the properties of a transverse wave in an elastic solid. But any medium which can support transverse waves must also be able to support longitudinal displacement. And in any medium the velocity of longitudinal displacement is greater than the velocity of transverse waves. If the velocity of longitudinal displacement of space is very much faster than the velocity of transverse waves in space, then some forces and interactions would seem (almost) instantaneous in the laboratory frame (and if that longitudinal displacement velocity is fast enough, the forces could seem almost instantaneous in practically any frame).

With such a model, we are able to reproduce the observed phenomena, we are able to duplicate the exact behaviors of double slit experiments, we are able to show why the electric (Coulomb) force vectors point at or very near the instantaneous particle location, and we are able to understand how gravity does the same. Not surprisingly we are also able to show that a particle wavefunction will collapse almost instantaneously and the particle’s energy will be sensed at one location.  This sort of model suggests that we will encounter what we observe to be non-local phenomena, for in such a model, a particle is a non-local entity, with a center of energy.

We have discussed many different approaches in this forum. But in general, as our physics knowledge stands now, based on Einstein’s SR and Copenhagen-like interpretations, we are far from a realistic picture which explains all of what we observe.

The simplest solution is a cause and effect model which begins with space as a fixed frame, a medium which is friction and inertia free, and considers the displacements required in such a medium to cause what we observe.  Then, once we take that view, the pieces of the puzzle begin to fall in place. And they fit very easily, and model what we observe quite precisely.

Hope you will take a look at this approach.  I think you may be surprised and delighted by what you discover.

Chip

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of af.kracklauer at web.de
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 10:56 AM
To: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation

Chip:

As a convinced proponent of the error in QM (as first discovered by Edwin Jaynes) I cannot accept any explnation of instantanious interaction in terms of "wave function collapse."  Bell's "Theorem" is simply wrong, and all similar work contains the same error.  Entanglement is just correlation from a prior cause. No hokus-pokus!  

Further, I see no reason a wrench has to arrise by delayed Coulomb-type intereaction. Again, it seems the error here is the association of the wrong source-sink pairs.  The direction of such interaction does not point to a position on a presumed past location in that the source is not moving relative to the sink in a straight line.  There are intertwined spirals, which are stable.  [The calculation of the involved force for the mutual circulation would also have to include the gravitational BXv (magnetic like) term, which I doubt has been done; correctly at least.  See O. D. Jefimenko.]

Sorry, I just find much easier to beleive that mistakes were made than that instantanioua interaction makes sense.

---Al

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2019 um 14:21 Uhr
Von: "Chip Akins" < <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com> chipakins at gmail.com>
An: "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" < <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Betreff: Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation

Hi Al

Sorry Al, I should have used the term binary star instead of pulsar.

We have experimental and physical evidence for almost instantaneous action, (the orbits of binary stars, wavefunction collapse, and the measured “velocity” of the Coulomb field, entanglement). 

The question is not whether this (almost) instantaneous action exists, but rather, what causes it?

If gravity were a field which updates at the velocity c, then the idea is that the motion of the stars would cause the direction of gravity (the gravity vector) to point toward where the other star was in d/c time earlier, and not at the instantaneous center of the other star. But it seems that in all cases, the gravitational and electric field vectors of stationary or moving objects point toward the center of the object, regardless of distance or velocity.

Therefore my conclusion is that the gravitational field is updated practically instantaneously.

Chip

From: General [ <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of  <mailto:af.kracklauer at web.de> af.kracklauer at web.de
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 1:24 PM
To:  <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' < <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation

Hi Chip:

When "studying" the orbital decay  of pulsars, it seems to me that an increse in the decay implies a change (presumably over and above that caused by escaping radiation) in the angular momentum or else directionally altered attaction between the two or whatever.  Where whould the energy thereto come from or go to.  What are you assuming so as to get the dissipative wrench action on the pair for delayed ineteraction but not there for instantanious interaction?  How can whateveritis be justififed?  Is the effect you propose seen in binary stars too?   

I can imagine that each just sees a weaker pull together through and towards the center of mass. 

BTW, as I see it, there are no such THINGS as fields (or photons/gravitons/aether etc.).  These concepts are models that help associate a force with human experience.  All that is actually known is captured with just Coulomb's (Gauss's) Law.  All the rest is baggage.

----Al

Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Februar 2019 um 15:29 Uhr
Von: "Chip Akins" < <mailto:chipakins at gmail.com> chipakins at gmail.com>
An: "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" < <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Betreff: Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation

Hi Al

If we study the orbital decay of pulsars we can see two large massive objects with gravitational fields, co-orbiting.

In this circumstance the gravitational field is not a stationary field.

However, in this circumstance it is clear that the instantaneous force vector of gravity must point toward the instantaneous position of the masses or the orbits would decay MUCH faster than observed. So gravity cannot be a retarded force, the field itself must either have a distorted shape due to motion, or it must be instantaneous.

I have run the requisite math to determine if a quantifiable rule could exist which causes field distortion which would create the appropriate force vectors. And there is no solution for distortion with motion which holds in all circumstances.

Therefore my conclusion is that the gravitational field is updated practically instantaneously.

Chip Akins

From: General [ <mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of  <mailto:af.kracklauer at web.de> af.kracklauer at web.de
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 8:03 AM
To:  <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' < <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Wolfgang Baer < <mailto:wolf at nascentinc.com> wolf at nascentinc.com>
Subject: Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation

Hi Albrecht:

It helps some; but....

For my part, it seems to me that for sufficiently symmetric conditions (a planet's essentially circular orbit about the sun, say) that a planet cannot distinguish between running into a gravitational field at a point, x say, where the gravitational field is at the moment of the planet's arrival at x that ommited 8 min earlier and sun-directed,  or one emmited instantainiously 0 min earlier.  They would appear to the planet to be the same.  Thus, I doubt the argument that delayed gravitational interaction would execute an orbit destroying torque, which in my mind matches up the wrong source and sink events and doesn't make geometric sense. 

What I suspect is that gravitation is a residue of the electromagnetic intereaction (via a delayed Coulomb's Law) ultimately caused by the discrepancy in the weights of the positive and negative charge carriers and thus their random motion and distribution about each other.   This would nicely explain why the speed of gravity is (should be) exactly the speed of light.  While I can't prove it, I imagine that if either speed were instantanious/infinite, that the universe would lock up so that there would be no motion at all.  That is, delay makes for dynamcis.  [for what it's worth, maybe nothing!]

ciao,  Al

Gesendet: Montag, 11. Februar 2019 um 21:18 Uhr
Von: "Albrecht Giese" < <mailto:phys at a-giese.de> phys at a-giese.de>
An: "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" < <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>, "Wolfgang Baer" < <mailto:wolf at nascentinc.com> wolf at nascentinc.com>
Betreff: [General] Velocity of gravitation

Hi Wolf, hi All,

some time ago we had a discussion here about gravity. In particular about the question whether the propagation speed of the gravitational field is c or infinite. The problem behind is the fact that a finite propagation speed of gravity should cause rotating pairs of stars to permanently increase their speed, because the other star appears at a retarded position and so the force between the stars should have a tangential component. Our discussion ended at that time with the result that the Liénard-Wiechert potential would solve the problem.

This was not very satisfying because the Liénard-Wiechert formalism is only about the field at a retarded time, and this description by itself does not solve this problem. I found that the solution is a completely different phenomenon. It is the fact (and as such well known in the physical literature) that fields like the electric field and also the gravitational field (our case) never show aberration. This is – according to literature – a well-known fact which is also theoretically well understood. But most are not aware of it, like me.

Experimentally it can in the case of the electrical field be proven in the laboratory. And the motion of stars show it for the gravitational case.

Do you feel that this helps?

Albrecht

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