[General] positions

Thu May 14 08:26:40 PDT 2015

Andrew,
    Thank your for your reply and questions.
     1. The size of the charged photon depends on one’s model of the photon. My relativistic model describes the trajectory of the charged photon but this trajectory could fit different photon models.
     2. The trajectory of the charged photon is helical. So the charged photon’s energy density could move along the same helical trajectory. Again, it would depend on the particular model of the charged photon.
     3. The average orbital path would be linear through or past the nucleus. The charged photon would circulate helically around its average path through the atom. The de Broglie wavelength is generated along the longitudinal direction of motion of the helically circulating charged photon, and that longitudinal direction passes through the nucleus. The electron wave function for the 1s orbital would correspond to any linear path through the nucleus. Since the starting position is not specified, all paths through the center would be included in the wave function (that’s why it is spherically symmetric). I think it’s not a matter of variable motion due to uncertainty.
     4. What is “waving” for the charged photon’s helical motion is the component of the charged photon’s generated plane wave along the longitudinal axis. This component of the helically circulating dcharged photon’s plane wave has the the de Broglie wavelength. This longitudinal component of the photon’s generated plane wave is the wave function of the electron. The charged photon would make many (a large number of) helical rotations in one electron oscillation through the nucleus.  In doing that it would be generating the de Broglie wavelength. There would be one complete de Broglie wavelength in one complete oscillation of the electron in the 1s state.
     5. The charged photon naturally curls up in correlation with its charge and mass. Can’t be more specific now.
   Have to run to school.
         Richard

> On May 12, 2015, at 3:50 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Richard,
> 
> I'm glad to see you describe the s orbital electrons as going thru the nuclear region. From your description, I get the impression that: 
> the whole charged photon has a length that is shorter than the electron orbital. Is this true? If so, I agree.
> the trajectory is helical. Does this mean that the center of mass (energy density) moves in a helical motion about (and offset from) the average orbit? Could you describe what is helical in your model? I may very well agree with this also.
> The orbital path is linear (but with variable direction). This is seldom expressed or taught. I agree in principle. The path is certainly more linear (oriented long ellipse) than circular (which is the shape most students seem to end up with, unless they accept the QM concept of a cloud). However, the uncertainty principle indicates that the ang mom L is not exactly zero, so the path could actually be circular (statistically, delta L > hbar/2 ?). Do the individual shapes belong to individual bound electrons (until disturbed) or do all bound electrons spend some time in the various shaped orbits to give a uniform distribution for all similarly bound electrons, when averaged over a lifetime of disturbances? 
> The variable deBroglie wavelength is an aspect that few people address. I agree with it. However, have you been able to define what is 'waving' with this wavelength? Is that the rotation of the helix? Would that imply a single rotation for the helix per orbit? Or would the number of helical turns per orbit be sqrt(511,000/13.6) or some other high number? If the high number, what is waving once per orbit?
> I agree with the energetics.
> We are basically in agreement with our models. However, I have not yet understood if you consider the electron to be your charged photon (which concept I could agree with) or if you picture a charged photon to be able to exist and propagate at the speed of light as a linear structure and can curl into an electron if exposed to an adequate B-field or E-field gradient.
> Item 1 is important to me, because I picture the electron to be 1/2 of a photon (perhaps a mm long) coiled about itself into a ball with radius of 1/2 the Compton radius (I used to think that it was the whole Compton radius). The other 1/2 becomes a positron. 
> 
> Item 2 is important to me because I picture the ang mom axis (the spin axis) of an electron as precessing about its velocity vector to give the 'helical' motion. This precession is the result of relativity giving a torque to the electron by increasing the effective mass (reducing the radius) of the portion of the electron that otherwise would exceed the velocity of light. The center of mass would follow an elliptical (perhaps non-helical) path that could be distorted by the effective B-field resulting from the electrons motion (B = dE/dt) about the nuclear charge (the spin-orbit interaction?).
> 
> We seem to have nearly the same picture, but distinguished by a definition that could be critical to its understanding. The neutron is not stable outside of a nucleus. Is your charged photon stable outside of its electron configuration?
> 
> Andrew
> 
> ____________________________
> Tue, May 12, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Andrew and Martin,
>   I think it would be a good challenge for anyone with a single-looped or double-looped photon model of an electron to model their electron in the 1s atomic state of hydrogen (where n=1, l=0, ml=0 and ms = + or - 1/2 hbar) where the electron has zero hbar atomic angular momentum even though it has internal electron spin 1/2 hbar. I model the electron here as oscillating back and forth linearly through the center of the atom as a charged photon with a helical trajectory of variable pitch and radius, with a total energy of E=mc^2 -13.6 eV and a maximum kinetic energy when the helically circulating charged photon passes the nucleus, generating a variable de Broglie wavelength along its trajectory (because its longitudinal momentum is changing as it oscillates in the atom) and making one complete de Broglie path per oscillation. The most probable position of the charged photon (the electron) to be detected is at 1 Bohr radius ao (as predicted by QM for the hydrogen atom) because the charged photon obeys the Schrodinger equation (in the non-relativistic approximation). If the 1s electron (charged photon) absorbs an uncharged photon of energy 13.6 eV, the hydrogen atom is ionized with the charged photon now having energy E=mc^2 .
>      Richard
>    
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