[General] positions

Andrew Meulenberg mules333 at gmail.com
Thu May 14 11:26:34 PDT 2015


Dear Richard,

I'm not trying to be argumentative; but, I do want to get more specific.

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Andrew,
>     Thank your for your reply and questions.
>      1. The size of the charged photon depends on one's model of the
> photon. My relativistic model describes the trajectory of the charged
> photon but this trajectory could fit different photon models.
>

I believe you stated that your model is the trajectory, not dependent on
either particle or wave models. Thus, the charged photon could either be on
the order of the electron Compton radius or a micron long ?


>      2. The trajectory of the charged photon is helical. So the charged
> photon's energy density could move along the same helical trajectory.
> Again, it would depend on the particular model of the charged photon.
>

Is the charged photon a dipole (a double helix?), to maintain 'balance'
along its trajectory, or is the distortion of space sufficient to restore
and balance the displacement and centrifugal force of the helical motion?


>      3. The average orbital path would be linear through or past the
> nucleus. The charged photon would circulate helically around its average
> path through the atom. The de Broglie wavelength is generated along the
> longitudinal direction of motion of the helically circulating charged
> photon, and that longitudinal direction passes through the nucleus.
>

How do you calculate the deBroglie wavelength of the charged photon? As if
it were a massive particle or a photon? Does the charged photon have a
unique mass equivalence and a rest energy?


> The electron wave function for the 1s orbital would correspond to any
> linear path through the nucleus. Since the starting position is not
> specified, all paths through the center would be included in the wave
> function (that's why it is spherically symmetric). I think it's not a
> matter of variable motion due to uncertainty.
>

How do you distinguish the charged photon from an electron? What does the
wave function represent that would cause (rather than be a result of) the
anisotropic motion? Above and below, you have come close to saying that the
charged photon is the electron. Yet it does not seem to be a 1-to-1
correspondence. I agree with your statement above for the s-orbital
electrons.


>      4. What is "waving" for the charged photon's helical motion is the
> component of the charged photon's generated plane wave along the
> longitudinal axis. This component of the helically circulating charged
> photon's plane wave has the de Broglie wavelength. This longitudinal
> component of the photon's generated plane wave is the wave function of the
> electron. The charged photon would make many (a large number of) helical
> rotations in one electron oscillation through the nucleus.  In doing that
> it would be generating the de Broglie wavelength. There would be one
> complete de Broglie wavelength in one complete oscillation of the electron
> in the 1s state.
>

My interpretation of what you say above is that the circulation frequency
is much higher than the deBroglie frequency (would it be the electron
Compton frequency?). The associated deBroglie wavelength is the motion of
the charged photon (the electron) twice thru the nucleus. If so, then I
think that I would agree with you on several points, even tho I would
express it differently. Is this the 'slinky model' where the graded spacing
of the coils varies twice in a deBroglie wavelength and the number of coils
could be quite high?


>      5. The charged photon naturally curls up in correlation with its
> charge and mass. Can't be more specific now.
>

I look forward to more later.

Andrew


>    Have to run to school.
>          Richard
>
> On May 12, 2015, at 3:50 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Richard,
>
> I'm glad to see you describe the s orbital electrons as going thru the
> nuclear region. From your description, I get the impression that:
>
>    1. the whole charged photon has a *length that is shorter than the
>    electron orbital*. Is this true? If so, I agree.
>    2. the *trajectory is helical*. Does this mean that the center of mass
>    (energy density) moves in a helical motion about (and offset from) the
>    average orbit? Could you describe what is helical in your model? I may very
>    well agree with this also.
>    3. The orbital *path is linear* (but with variable direction). This is
>    seldom expressed or taught. I agree in principle. The path is certainly
>    more linear (oriented long ellipse) than circular (which is the shape most
>    students seem to end up with, unless they accept the QM concept of a
>    cloud). However, the uncertainty principle indicates that the ang mom L is
>    not exactly zero, so the path could actually be circular (statistically,
>    delta L *>* hbar/2 ?). Do the individual shapes belong to individual
>    bound electrons (until disturbed) or do all bound electrons spend some time
>    in the various shaped orbits to give a uniform distribution for all
>    similarly bound electrons, when averaged over a lifetime of disturbances?
>    4. The* variable deBroglie wavelength* is an aspect that few people
>    address. I agree with it. However, have you been able to define what is
>    'waving' with this wavelength? Is that the rotation of the helix? Would
>    that imply a single rotation for the helix per orbit? Or would the number
>    of helical turns per orbit be sqrt(511,000/13.6) or some other high number?
>    If the high number, what is waving once per orbit?
>    5. I agree with the energetics.
>    6. We are *basically in agreement* with our models. However, I have
>    not yet understood if you consider the electron to be your charged photon
>    (which concept I could agree with) or if you picture a charged photon to be
>    able to exist and propagate at the speed of light as a linear structure and
>    can curl into an electron if exposed to an adequate *B*-field or *E*-field
>    gradient.
>
> Item 1 is important to me, because I picture the electron to be 1/2 of a
> photon (perhaps a mm long) coiled about itself into a ball with radius of
> 1/2 the Compton radius (I used to think that it was the whole Compton
> radius). The other 1/2 becomes a positron.
>
> Item 2 is important to me because I picture the ang mom axis (the spin
> axis) of an electron as precessing about its velocity vector to give the
> 'helical' motion. This precession is the result of relativity giving a
> torque to the electron by increasing the effective mass (reducing the
> radius) of the portion of the electron that otherwise would exceed the
> velocity of light. The center of mass would follow an elliptical (perhaps
> non-helical) path that could be distorted by the effective *B*-field
> resulting from the electrons motion (*B* = d*E*/dt) about the nuclear
> charge (the spin-orbit interaction?).
>
> We seem to have nearly the same picture, but distinguished by a definition
> that could be critical to its understanding. The neutron is not stable
> outside of a nucleus. Is your charged photon stable outside of its electron
> configuration?
>
> Andrew
> ____________________________
> Tue, May 12, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Andrew and Martin,
>   I think it would be a good challenge for anyone with a single-looped or
> double-looped photon model of an electron to model their electron in the 1s
> atomic state of hydrogen (where n=1, l=0, ml=0 and ms = + or - 1/2 hbar)
> where the electron has zero hbar atomic angular momentum even though it has
> internal electron spin 1/2 hbar. I model the electron here as oscillating
> back and forth linearly through the center of the atom as a charged photon
> with a helical trajectory of variable pitch and radius, with a total energy
> of E=mc^2 -13.6 eV and a maximum kinetic energy when the helically
> circulating charged photon passes the nucleus, generating a variable de
> Broglie wavelength along its trajectory (because its longitudinal momentum
> is changing as it oscillates in the atom) and making one complete de
> Broglie path per oscillation. The most probable position of the charged
> photon (the electron) to be detected is at 1 Bohr radius ao (as predicted
> by QM for the hydrogen atom) because the charged photon obeys the
> Schrodinger equation (in the non-relativistic approximation). If the 1s
> electron (charged photon) absorbs an uncharged photon of energy 13.6 eV,
> the hydrogen atom is ionized with the charged photon now having energy
> E=mc^2 .
>      Richard
>
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